BatChat

Bats & Coronavirus

May 07, 2020 Bat Conservation Trust Season 1 Episode 13
BatChat
Bats & Coronavirus
Show Notes Transcript

S1E13 In this bonus episode recorded during the UK lockdown, we have two guests on the show. Tom August is a scientist based at the UK Centre for Ecology and Hydrology and Lisa Worledge is Head of Conservation Services at the Bat Conservation Trust. They talk to Steve about the interest that bats are currently getting in the press around the origins of the current COVID-19 pandemic, what bats can teach us about future pandemics and how some bat species have been practicing social distancing far longer than we have!

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Steve Roe:

Hello, and welcome to this bonus episode of BatChat. We're currently between series here on Bat Chat. But given recent events and the attention that bats are getting in the press, we decided a bonus episode was called for. Before we get started, we hope all of our listeners are staying safe and are enjoying seeing their local bats in the evening from the comfort of your own homes. On the 23rd of March 2020, 10 Downing Street broadcast a public announcement to the British public.

Prime Minister Boris Johnson:

The time has now come for us all to do more. From this evening, I must give the British people a very simple instruction, you must stay at home.

Steve Roe:

That was the British Prime Minister Boris Johnson announcing the start of the government's stay at home policy, resulting in a change of daily life for us all that we could never have imagined just a few weeks ago. Now we are recording this on the 6th of May, 44 days into lockdown. And we're doing this over a conference call. So apologies that the sound quality isn't quite as you would expect from BatChat. But like everyone, we're doing the best we can with the situation. We'd like to point out that all facts are correct at the time of recording. But as you'll hear during this episode, this is a fast changing situation. We've got two guests joining us to tell us whether bats really have changed the world forever. And I'm going to let them introduce themselves and their background in bats and infectious diseases.

Tom August:

Tom August I did my PhD studying coronaviruses in bats in the UK from 2008 to 2012. And that was off the back of the first big outbreak of Coronavirus, the SARS pandemic in 2002. I've for the past eight years been working at the UK Centre for Ecology and Hydrology, where I was a data scientist working with System Science Day to a new tech to support conservation research in the UK.

Lisa Worledge:

Hi, I'm Lisa Worledge, I'm head of conservation services at the Bat Conservation Trust, and part of my remit at BCT is lead on bats and diseases. So I spent a lot of time working on things like COVID-19 guidance and information for the general public about balancing diseases.

Steve Roe:

So two perfect guests to get listeners through the news and find out whether, you know, we've heard a lot in the press that bat's potentially are responsible for this. I mean, is there any truth in that it can one of you just introduce the situation as it stands at the moment and what we do and don't know.

Lisa Worledge:

In terms of the direct question, are bats responsible? That's a really simple answer. No. Humans are responsible for the COVID-19 pandemic. Transmission is human to human and it's human activities that lead to the spillover of a pathogen from wildlife into humans in the first place. So no bats aren't responsible.

Steve Roe:

So Tom, where's this idea that bats were the original host for for the current strain of Coronavirus?

Tom August:

So COVID-19 is a zoonotic disease. It's a disease that come as originated in wild animal hosts and has come into humans. It's a natural event that occurs. And typically, you know, that wouldn't spread very far. But given our new sort of global society with air travel, and such these sorts of things can become pandemics much more quickly, which is why we're hearing more about them. More recently. Now, the SARS pandemic, which was in started in 2002 went into 2003. Infected Around 8000 people killed about 800 people that we worked out originated the original virus was from a wild bat host. The current virus or COVID-19 is caused by a different virus, SARS Cov-2, which is related to the virus, of course, the SARS pandemic. And it's reasonable to assume that the original virus the original virus for this pandemic, also probably came from a wild bat populations.

Steve Roe:

So why are we so unsure? What's the missing link that we need in order to find out whether, you know, it's likely that that has come from from a from a bat species?

Tom August:

I think the question we're trying to answer at the moment is which bat species and where did it originate? So I think the most closely related virus that we have identified as 94%, from Latin China, to put that in context, different patients who have COVID The virus that they hosted like 99.9%, the same SARS, this previous pandemic, that's about 80% the same. MERS, which is another Coronavirus. It's about 50%. The same, all of those viruses are in the same group subgroup of Coronavirus is called Beta coronaviruses. So that gives you some sort of flavour of, of how they can say that 94% of that most closely related, but it's pretty close. But it's not, it's not the one, it's not the one we're looking for. And it's important to know where it came from, that we can help to prevent some spillover events in the future.

Lisa Worledge:

I was just gonna say I think it is worth emphasising that it's not the same. But to add to what Tom said, because we've had a lot of people saying and using the fact that this similar virus has been found in the species of bat as going Yeah, therefore, it's definitely bad. But actually, even if a virus that ultimately led to SARS cov two originated in bats, SARS Cov-2 itself has not been isolated from any species, other than humans, or all cases related to humans or from domestic animals. And that genetic difference is significant. humans and other primates chimpanzees, for example, are 96%, common in 96% of the genome in common, but we are not the same species. So whilst there might have been an origin in bats, it's very likely that the virus that is now causing the pandemic in humans has come through another species or has mutated within humans. And I think it's just important to understand that in terms of the sort of culture around blaming bats.

Steve Roe:

so just to just to simplify that a little bit. So we're saying that humans and chimpanzees share 90% 96% of their genome, or there abouts. So clearly, we're not the same species. So we're saying that the original, you know, Coronavirus, that was in bats is clearly not the same as the one of the human strains, but it's mutated at least once, if not many more times than that in that interim period.

Tom August:

Yes. That's fair to say. Yeah. Yeah.

Steve Roe:

So I mean, you know, the, that that particular bat species that that Tom talked about, that had that bat Cov RATG-13 is Rhinolophus affinis, which its common name is the intermediate horseshoe bat, which is really unhelpful because there's an Australian bat species also called the intermediate horseshoe bat. I mean, you know, that species was first described in 1823. There are six subspecies of that particular horseshoe bat, and it's widespread, widespread across southern and Southeast Asia. I mean, Tom, what what what do we know about Coronavirus in bats to date?

Tom August:

We actually know a fair amount because of there was no SARS pandemic back in 2002. That formed a whole bunch of research to try and figure out okay, where are these coronaviruses? Are there lots of them? Are they do we need to worry about them? So quite a lot of research groups all over the world started looking for them. And including myself as part of my PhD. What we found was that actually quite similar to humans, quite a lot of bats have coronaviruses humans have lots of credit rights as they cause the common cold. So it's perhaps not a surprise that yeah, bats around the world had grown viruses. They were quite diverse, and the bats didn't really seem to get that sick form. And so a conclusion from my research was that yeah, there was some coronaviruses and bats in UK, but no, they didn't pose any risk to humans. And that was sort of the sort of the general the general picture that that emerged from that sort of push for research after the original SARS pandemic.

Steve Roe:

So what's changed? Now you you said they didn't necessarily pose a threat what what is it that's changed to allow the spillover into humans.

Tom August:

So spill overs occur, or can can be driven by human activity. So for a spillover to occur, you need the disease in the wild animal, and you need contact between that wild animal and usually an intermediate host. So because humans don't have a huge amount of contact with wild animals, wild animals have actually more contact with Perry domestic animals, so animals that live around humans like cattle or pets, or animals in markets and these sorts of things. So zoonosis tend to come through those roots. So that happened with SARS that's happened with other previous zoonotic spillover events. So these sorts of in environments where we have close contact between wildlife and prey domestic animals. Like the sort of wet markets that we've seen in the news that exists in China, these sorts of environments create that the conditions favourable for zoonotic transmission. The reason I said that that wasn't really a risk in in UK, we don't really have those sorts of environments in the UK, that have big content between wildlife and these sorts of animals. So there's very low risk of zoonotic transmission. That also gives us some insight as to how we might be able to reduce the risk of these sorts of zoonotic spillover events in the future by reducing these sorts of opportunities for transmission, but also trying to reduce the prevalence of these diseases in the wild has populations. And I'm sure we'll come back to how thing human activity impacts on those sorts of levels in the wildlife populations.

Steve Roe:

So at least, I mean, Tom said the UK doesn't have those sorts of environments, I guess, I guess now is the time to talk about wet markets. We've been hearing about wet markets, as it's thought that this was the possibility of the cause of the spillover. Lisa, can you just describe a wetter market and why there's such a high risk environment for for zoonotic spillover?

Lisa Worledge:

Yeah, I mean, I've never visited one and I will probably move away from the term wet market. That term actually, they're pretty much like local supermarkets. In a way. I think here, what we're talking about specifically, is the trade in live wildlife. And I think it's important to differentiate between the sort of other things that are being sold at certain markets and this live wildlife trade. So there is this, this situation exactly as Tom describes, and one of the problems that we've seen, and one of the routes that spillover events, can take places where you're bringing wildlife, into contact with other wildlife or with other domestic animals, where there wouldn't ordinarily be that contact. And this is what's exactly what's happening at ly wildlife markets. So you've got animals that are that are hunted, that are brought together in very cramped conditions, very unhygienic conditions, lots of species in small space that wouldn't otherwise be interacting. And when I say it's also something small cages, where there can be urine and faeces, you know, spreading between different species. And so you can see that this is, if you like, a sort of crucible of, of viral recombinational, the potential the potential for that, and that's the issue with these live wildlife markets.

Steve Roe:

So what are the theories have been suggested? And why?

Lisa Worledge:

For the origin? Yeah, so So some of the some of the early cases in China weren't actually linked to the Wuhan market. So although that's a possible route, it absolutely hasn't been confirmed as the route. And there are, there are other potential. So for example, where agriculture has moved into environments that were so forested areas, so anyone who's seen and I think an awful lot of people during lockdown, have watched Contagion the film Contagion, if you don't want to watch the whole thing, bring it up on Netflix, or wherever, and just go to the end scenes. And those end scenes in that movie highlight one of the possible routes of spillover really beautifully. It shows some virgin forest that's basically getting chopped down, you have a huge sort of open barn structure going up on that Forest for pig farming. And you then see that's coming in roosting bats that, you know, would otherwise be resting in the forest roosting above those pigs, and they're feeding and the feeding remains drop, and their urine drops and their faeces drop. And this gives you a sort of route for for spillover, because, you know, just just being in the presence of a bat isn't going to lead to a spillover event. As Tom has already suggested, you need all of these steps or barriers to these events. And what's happening in the last, I don't know, 60/70 years, we've seen the number of emerging infectious diseases with zoonotic so wild animal origins increasing. And we've seen that increasing because of human actions on our environment. And what we're doing is we're basically reducing these barriers. So we're changing the distributions of potential hosts. We're changing the exposure of US and other animals to this sort of these reservoirs if you like. And all of that means those barriers are coming down and that's leading to more info To the infectious diseases, so, you know, human activities absolutely at the heart of this

Steve Roe:

Very nicely answering that question there. Thank you. So literally my next question. I mean, why have so many different intermediate hosts have been suggested? And we talked about that idea that the virus has mutated at least once and there's been all sorts of other animals suggested has been an intermediate hosts, which we don't yet know anything from pangolins to servers, to monkeys to farm animals. Why have so many different intermediate animals been suggested?

Tom August:

Because because we don't know what the intermediate animal is reportedly. I think we're still hunting for it. In the in the SARS outbreak, it was civets thought to be civets. This outbreak, I don't think we know.

Steve Roe:

So, I mean, presumably there are scientists around the world trying to pin that down to help us understand how they might be. I mean, presumably unknown, what that intermediate host is gives us an idea of more clues to a potential vaccine, you know, I mean, what are scientists doing to try and find that intermediate host.

Tom August:

So the intermediate host will help us to understand how this spillover event occurred, and how it got spread to humans. And that's going to help us to figure out how we prevent this sort of thing happening again. It's not going to help with it's not gonna help with a vaccine. But it will help us to identify that that route, I think it's important to differentiate, as Lisa has already said, the pandemic is is huge human and, and the way we live our lives, in modern society, travelling all over the world, living in dense urban settings, all these sorts of things have contributed to that. Hunting down the original host, an intermediate host, they don't really help us in the moment in tackling this pandemic, but they help us understand what how it started, and therefore allows us to prepare and prevent these sorts of things happening again in the future.

Steve Roe:

And I mean, basically have come out and said that, you know, they would like to see wet markets banned, or at least to trade in live animals banned. There's been speculation that potentially that might not work, it might result in them being driven underground, which is more hard to regulate. I mean, Lisa, would it not be better to introduce regulations for such things? What's What's the reasoning behind sending out an outright ban in the trade of of live animals?

Lisa Worledge:

I think regulation can be can be really difficult. I think the the issues, the although it's not what's being asked for is a little bit more complex than a straight, straightforward ban. But the conditions and a lot of live animal markets are really cruel. They do facilitate the spread of viruses, the bringing together of these of these stressed animals. And also, they threaten a whole host of wildlife species. So it's important to understand this in in that context as well. So yes, it is a very complex, it is a very complex issue. Sometimes you need to be calling for for more to achieve something. And what's really clear is we cannot carry on as a Is it the original sort of SARS outbreak that Tom was talking about back in 2002, was associated with with a market that's we think how the virus got into palm civets. Not all outbreaks associated with this situation, and indeed, the MERS Coronavirus. The Middle Eastern Respiratory Syndrome actually isn't connected with bats, it's camels. It's not it's not a animal market in the sense of food that's for for different purposes. So, you know, I'm not saying this is the be all and end all. But it's really important that, you know, these markets do offer this potential and that needs to be addressed.

Steve Roe:

And, and Tom come back to teach us anything about understanding these types of diseases in more detail.

Tom August:

Yeah, interestingly, I was revisiting my PhD thesis, which seems really relevant now. And her perhaps was less relevant at the time that I published it. And there's a bit in there where we looked at how the population structure of bats affected their disease prevalence, and I was particularly interested in Coronavirus because it was relevant to the start of the pandemic which recently occurred, but I was also looking at Ecto parasites like mites and ticks because they also do actually transmitted disease. I thought they could be a model for viruses. What I found in Daubenton's bats, they went has been quite well known for in during the maternity period, when the female is giving birth. The male dominance pants, the adult male dominance pants form bachelor wrists, which are separate, which are physically separated from the maternity groups. And one of the hypotheses for why this was happening was for disease avoidance, the theory being that juvenile bats that the newborn bats are quite susceptible to disease. And so the disease prevalence in that maternity colonies is quite high, the blokes stay away than they have reduced to these bones. And that's what we found. And we also found that for coronaviruses, so what we're looking at there is social distancing. Okay, so the males are socially distancing themselves from the potentially effective population, which in hindsight, that's kind of cool, because that's what we're being told to do so. So, there may be other reasons to why bachelor con is one but this is what certainly one hypothesis, and it's quite easy to think that nature has evolved social distancing to avoid Coronavirus infection.

Steve Roe:

You heard it here. First folks that's been doing social distancing for a lot longer than we have. Lisa, the IUCN have recently issued some guidance. What is the risk of the human strain of the current Coronavirus, mutating and jumping back back from human to bats. If that happens, if it's possible, is there a possibility that we could see another white nose syndrome type of event with mass bat deaths because of a new strain of Coronavirus that they're not used to?

Lisa Worledge:

Well, firstly, we don't know. But there's a lot of work going on at the moment to understand the risk of human transmission, not just the bats but all sorts of other animals, including domestic pets and wildlife as well. So that's that's a piece of work. That's very much an action. What we what we don't know is at the moment, our understanding from other Coronavirus is within that is they don't seem to make that sick. So we don't know what would happen. Should the SARS cov two virus be able to infect bats. And it's really important to remember that, although we tend to talk about bats in the round, there are 1400 species of bats. And they are incredibly diverse. And we were talking about genetic differences earlier, I think it's worth pointing out are common and subprime and pipistrelles that we only separated as two species in the 1980s are more genetically different than humans and chimpanzees. So you know, that even with species that seem very similar, there are huge differences. So it's really dangerous to talk about bats in the round in this sort of thing. So we don't, we don't we don't know whether it can move back the this virus isn't, it isn't recognisable from the most similar virus we found in bats isn't the same. But it is of a group. It's gone through a lot of changes in order to be able to infect humans. So there isn't a strong indication that it's readily going to infect that. But there is of course, a potential. And that's why the IUCN statements been issued. And that's why with BCTs guidance, for example, we recently issued for about carers, we want people to take sensible precautions to minimise any risk there might be until we understand things a bit more until scientists have had more time to investigate. And from our perspective, that's things like people taking what are becoming everyday precautions, let's face it in wearing face coverings, in taking sensible disease risk management precautions and most people who are regularly handling bats should be doing this sort of thing anyway, because of other disease risks. So you know, sensible hygiene, wearing gloves, all of this sort of thing. So, basically, those are the main things that we're asking at the moment. But as you said right at the beginning, this is a rapidly changing situation. And all of our guidance. In fact, even our general Frequently Asked Questions type information about COVID-19 carries the the disclaimer, if you like that this information could change and it could change in the next few days. It could change in the next few weeks. It could change in the next few months. You know what this is going to be with us for quite a while and it's going to take us quite a while to understand the human to animal route both the routes into humans and then any potential route out from humans. Because right now, as Tom said, the focus has got to be on human health and that's absolutely where the priorities are. So again, in our guidance about people wearing face coverings, we've we've given instructions on how to make your own if you're if you if you say minded and it's really important people aren't taking supplies away from NHS and health care providers etc.

Steve Roe:

And we should say we'll put a link to those those guided notes from BCT in the show notes below this podcast episode.

Tom August:

So I totally agree with what Lisa said that about, we don't really know what the probability those things are and what effect they would have, as a couple of insights from my PhD research. One was, we looked at all the bats that had Coronaviruses. So the bats that we sampled, about 40% of them had Coronavirus, and they didn't show any effect of this on their health. So that was quite interesting. That was one insight. And the other was that each bat species that we sampled that had Coronavirus, they had their own sort of lineage of Coronavirus. So there was specific to that species. So, in a way you could think of it as like the viruses evolving. The bat species by species has its own Coronavirus. We even sampled one species in two different locations about 50 kilometres apart, and those viruses grouped. So the viruses one site were grouped together, in being case related, they were more distantly related to another group of viruses from another location. So sort of also spatially, which was, which is kind of cool. And that kind of speaks to the story that you know, we have different viruses coronaviruses evolved, developed for different bat species. But whilst those both might give some indication as to the likelihood of transmission to bats, and what impact might have, we will really don't know because this is a this is a new virus.

Lisa Worledge:

I guess the only other thing that we've not mentioned that I think it's worth highlighting is people who have roosts in their homes, if you're not disturbing your bats if you're not coming in direct contact with your bats, you know, first of all, so as cough to Coronavirus disease. This has not been found in a bat species. And certainly we don't have correct me if I'm wrong, Tom, but we don't do Coronavirus as we found in UK bats on that closely related to those that have been isolated from the horseshoe bats and Chandra, is that right?

Tom August:

No, they're not and they're not closely related to other human growth right Coronavirus is either.

Lisa Worledge:

So the bats in your house present no risk in terms of COVID-19 to you. And you're perfectly safe having a having a wrist in your in your house?

Steve Roe:

Should we expect more of these pandemics in the future? And if so, how do we prevent this from happening again? I don't mind who answers this?

Tom August:

I think yeah, I think pandemics will become more common. And that, as I said earlier is primarily down to how we now live our lives, our international lives. Because zoonosis have always been a feature of of human history of nature's history. But traditionally they would be localised. Now, now when they come to humans, they go global. So yeah, I think pandemics is going to become more common. And indeed, many people have been predicting exactly this event. Lisa mentioned contagion, for example, which is written by a CDC epidemiologist based on the Nieper virus. So you know, yes, we know these things are going to happen more frequently. In terms of how we prevent those. I think we've we've sort of touched dance around some of these issues already. For me, there's there's two key elements is that the original spillover event, and then there's the move to pandemic moved pandemic, that's also human health. That's all the stuff that you know, everyone's talking about government's talking about right now. I guess what we want to focus on is that original spillover event. And Lisa has already talked about deforestation, and the sorts of things which can impact on bat populations. And in my mind, they do two things, they increase the prevalence in the bat population, and they increase the contact between well, not just about any any hosts, and their contact with with humans. So you can imagine you're cutting down some habitat that's used, for example, by bats. That population is then under increased stress, as in the main net to travel further for food. Stress, just as in humans, can make you more susceptible to infection. And so that sort of activity can increase prevalence. Because bats may be moving further to forage for food. They're coming in close contact with other individuals, that's going to increase transmission, which may also increased prevalence. If they're travelling further, they may also be travelling to more urban areas. Or you can think of like rodents, for example, might be travelling into human dwellings to find foods and rodents can be a source of diseases as well. So there is the increased contact with humans. So there's lots of activities, including habitat destruction, including the ways that we have live markets. and lots of things that we can change in the way that we live our lives that will help to reduce these sorts of spillover events in the future.

Steve Roe:

So to summarise, if listeners are delivering bat talks, either later in the year, or probably more likely next year now and a member of the public asks where the bats were responsible for the outbreak, what's the perfect concise answer to give given our current knowledge?

Lisa Worledge:

No. How concise would you like? It comes back to what I said earlier, really. No. Saying this this you can argue that there's obviously a role and when you when you when you trace what the origins of the virus were, but it is not. But it is human activity. That is causing increase in emerging infectious diseases, that is causing an increasing number of pandemics. It is the way we live our lives it is the fact that we're not very good. And I mean this globally as thinking of things in the round. This is what the world health approach has tried to try to do in recent years, is consider the link between ecology, biodiversity, human health. And I think we need to be taking that much more seriously. And we need to be considering it much more broadly, in all aspects of life in all aspects of development, and thinking much more at a landscape scale. That's a common phrase, isn't it these days in conservation. But you know, we need to be thinking much more at this at this larger scale, about the potential impacts of a whole variety of human activities, and ultimately leaks into climate change as well. But are to blame? No, they're not.,

Tom August:

I think if someone Yeah, so essentially, yeah. So someone asks, you know, that's to blame. This is clearly said, yeah, bats are not to blame. The question is, how do we prevent this sort of thing happening again in the future. And this is one these rare occurrences were actually the interests of bats and the interests of humans actually align. So conservation of bats, preserving that habitat, keeping healthy wild bat populations, great for bats. Also great for preventing spillover events. So it's kind of win-win conservation advances directly aligned with ambition to reduce spillover events. Fantastic.

Lisa Worledge:

Well said Tom.

Tom August:

That was the closing paragraph of my PhD thesis.

Lisa Worledge:

Brilliant, your time your time has come!

Steve Roe:

And do you guys have any suggested back projects that people could be doing at home during lockdown? Oh,

Lisa Worledge:

Well, yeah, there's, there's, there's quite a few things you can do, actually, depending on how batty you already are. I mean, one of the things we're encouraging the Bat Conservation Trust is people to take part in our sunset sunrise survey. And that although in the past, we said people you need to be wandering around your neighbourhood, we're actually updating that to say you can participate from your own garden. If you don't have a garden, it can be your balcony, it can be leaning out of your window, but not too far. Just looking even if you've got a bat detector, just looking out at dusk, and just after and seeing if you can observe any bats flying around and share that information with obesity. So you can see all of that on on our website. And I'm sure Steve, you can add the link. There's other practical things. So if you're looking for a crafty activity during lockdown, why not make about box, pop up a box at home those instructions again, on our website. But combat box design is a really great one, nice and straightforward and has a good chance of being used if it's if it's put up in the right place. If you want to start planning for when we're out the other side, and we're allowed out to play again, why not go in, find the details of your local back group, get involved, make contact with them. So once they are up and running activities, you can go in and get engaged, hopefully get out about what with other folks, and then more more that way. And I would say finally, for those of you who are listening who are seasoned back workers, and I've been putting off analysing those 20,000 recordings. Now's a really good time to start working on that there won't be a better opportunity.

Steve Roe:

Great advice. And my thanks to Tom August from the UK Centre for Ecology and Hydrology, and Lisa Worledge, head of conservation services at the Bat Conservation Trust for taking time out of their day to speak with me. So as promised the links to the various resources mentioned In that interview can be found in the shownotes below, including how to find your local bat group, so that you can tell them about the bats you may well be seeing in your gardens during the evening, and we know that they would love to hear about those records. If you're not already subscribed to BatChat, consider subscribing. That way, you'll automatically get any further bonus episodes between now and the release of Sirius to later in the year. We hope you've enjoyed this episode. And if you have, please let your friends and family know about our podcast, you can join the online conversation on social media using the hashtag BatChat. Until next time, please continue to stay safe and remember, one day life will return to some sort of normality.